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This is in regards to the Common Adventure forum discussion during the August 7th Monthly Meeting. This is my humble option.
For those of you who don’t want to read this long post, I believe that whether or not the St Louis Canoe & Kayak Club allows any mention whatsoever on their website should be voted on by Club Membership. Acceptance of the Common Adventure Model was voted on and approved two years ago. If any of the Board Directors do not want to serve in those positions based on the outcome, they can choose to not rerun for office.
For those that don’t know me, I was the Vice President and then President for around 10 years. Most of that time, the club was conducting “Popup Trips”, now known as Common Adventure (CA) Trips. Up until 2024 when I did a comprehensive review of all the American Canoe Association (ACA) rules and regs during my insurance review, I and everyone else including all past officers, thought that the ACA included pop-up trips. That was not true.
That meant that if someone was hurt on a popup/CA, the injured party could theoretically sue the Trip Leader and the Club and they had no backup. They were on their own for all legal defense and fees. ACA and Club sanctioned trips however, had liability insurance. That didn’t mean that people couldn’t sue the Trip Leader/Club and even ACA, only that the ACA covered up to $1,000,000 in liability.
Once we discovered that, several people said they would no longer lead popup trips. Looking for alternatives, thanks to Kathy Pzonka, I learned about and researched the Common Adventure Policy used by almost every paddling club in America, including the biggest, the Carolina Canoe Club. I spoke to the author of the policy, a law professor and paddler and had a lawyer in our own club review the policy that you see on the website and all the supporting documents on the author’s website.
One of the primary principles is that Common Adventure trips are not sanctioned by the Club or ACA and that inclusion of a forum on the website is a courtesy. The second most important is that anyone who coordinates a CA trip is doing so at their own risk as is every person who signs up. All participants are strongly encouraged to read the Common Adventure explanation on the website before signing up or Coordinating a trip.Now, if I had known popups were not covered by the ACA way back when I volunteered for the position of Vice President, would I have still done so? And led trips? Yes, absolutely. And I believe most of the officers and trips in our 30 year history would still have done so too.
I believe that I, as an officer and Trip Leader/Coordinator act in good faith and take all reasonable precautions – which includes doing research and getting the advice of more experienced paddlers — the risk of me being sued is minimal. In fact, I cancelled quite a few of my first trips because of river conditions and not enough experienced people participating! I have also told people that they were not experienced enough or did not have the right kind of boat for trips – sanctioned and CA.
I would like to think that the people in this club understand that this sport can be dangerous and accidents do happen despite the best efforts. But, I believe they would not sue me if something still happened if I was acting in a responsible manner. Even if I knew that was not true, that is the risk I am willing to take to give back to new paddlers what Club members did for me when I started out. Common Adventure groups are what new members participate the most in.
I honestly feel that eliminating Common Adventure trips would be detrimental to the Club’s future.
Sincerely
Eileen Lenkman
Past Vice-President & President -
I agree that Common Adventure trips are an important piece in the club to make paddling more affordable for the more casual paddlers who may not want to spend an additional $40/ yr for ACA insurance for each member of their family. Our. Club currently has a family membership that includes ACA coverage for their children on a limited basis. We strive to paddle safely with wearing PFDs and no alcohol while paddling, in addition to opportunities of free paddling education. I would like this to be brought up to a vote before abandoning the Common Adventure model, which , to my knowledge, hasn’t been a problem for our club or the other ACA clubs I belong to. Those that wish to lead trips that are ACA insured are free to do so and education must be covered under ACA insurance .Respectfully Kathy Pszonka
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I would like to correct something I said in my original post about the Common Adventure trips.
When I volunteered for the Vice President role, Dave Hassig and other outgoing officers did tell me that I could be sued. It was part of the job and one of the reasons Board positions were hard to fill. We had quite the discussion in the meeting but I still agreed to do the job. I don’t recall any mention of ACA insurance coverage although there might have been. Again, at that time, I think all the officers believed popups were covered.
Eileen
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Eileen,
I totally agree. Common Adventure trips are a very important part of the club. Participants must understand that they are responsible for their own safety. Being solely responsible for one’s safety is not an unusual thing to ask. I believe this was organized correctly to allow the club to continue these trips.
– Doug
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Okay, the old man has cooled down. I want to start with I think that it is irresponsible for any club member to state that anyone who expresses concerns about the liability of a practice of the club should just quit the board. When you consider most of our board elections boil down to trying to get someone to accept a nomination it is not a very good attitude to adapt. This club cannot function without a board.
I asked for discussion about the Common Adventure format, because myself and others have expressed the liability implications of this practice.
My interpretation of a Common Adventure trip is what Kathy does every year when her and some members do a trip to the Apostille Islands. This is done off our website between the individual’s participating. This is individuals getting together for common goal.
My opinion is that this concept gets blurred when it is on our Paddle America Club website. We require no documentation or waiver confirming that the participants have read or understand the concept that these trips are taking place under. All anyone has to say is I didn’t know I was supposed to read and agree to that, I assumed since it is on the club website it was covered. This places these trips totally outside of our agreement with the American Canoe Association who provide our liability insurance.
This club is only viable as a Paddle America Club under the umbrella of the American Canoe Association. We cannot afford to operate otherwise. Every year we sign an agreement with them stating that we will follow their guidelines in order to provide liability insurance for the club. I think we should not risk this affiliation because some people don’t want to play by the rules.
I have probably posted more Common Adventure Trips than any other member because I felt was the only option I had, but I have always been concerned with the risk for the club in this practice.
I would suggest we replace Common Adventure with an ACA Pop-Up format. Under this all participants would have to be ACA members with a signed annual waiver. This would bring us in compliance with the ACA and allow ACA members to post trips without going through the ticketing process.
For members who are not ACA members we would still conduct trips through our current ticketing and trip process. I have used this for my last two trips to test where we are in this process and Carolyn has greatly improved the experience.
I sent her an email that I wanted to do a trip.
She sent me an information form that I filled out so that she would know what to post.
She arranged a smart waiver with the ACA for non ACA members and posted the trip.
We put a post in the trip forum so people could let me know they were coming.
On the morning of the trip she sent me a list of attendees with emergency contact numbers and any medical issues.
After the trip she confirmed with me who attended for the ACA required report.
I only hope more members take advantage of this. This eliminates most of the complaints I have heard over the years about dealing with paperwork and money for club trips.Dennis Current President
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Great news! Our outstanding current Vice President Carolyn Knarr once again stepped up and personally called the ACA insurance the morning after our meeting. Carolyn confirmed our club can continue to enjoy common adventures as long as there is clarity to the participants that it’s not an ACA sanctioned event and the individual accepts that responsibility. Yah Carolyn! Always one to look for the right information for our terrific club members!
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I want to express my gratitude to all the board members who make this club and trips possible. We all have a love for our paddling and without this club I feel I wouldn’t be as good a paddler as I have learned so much from the skills clinics or individuals taking the opportunity to teach and advise while paddling together.
I want to believe we can have a paddle club with knowledgeable people who understand there’s a possibility of risks involved in our sport and no one individual should bear the legal ramifications to lead a trip. Sanctioned or CA
THANKS EVERYONE FOR STLCKC and your efforts to allow us these opportunities to paddle together
Sincerely Scott Thierheimer -
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I just want to make a comment here….yes, I did call ACA (better to ask forgiveness than permission sometimes), which answers the question if they are allowed by ACA. However, we still need to decide if we need to have our own waivers to protect the club from lawsuits. Yes, people paddle at their own risk, but the club itself is at risk. I did not want to chime in because I wanted to give members a chance to make their opinions known first. But since Roxann spilled the beans…I do think there is a way we can do club waivers and continue to have Common Adventure trips.
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Carolyn
I would support a general club waiver that said something like
The St Louis Canoe & Kayak Club” is hosting the Common Adventure forum as a courtesy to it’s members. These trips are not sanctioned by the club or ACA.
By signing below, you are acknowledging that you have read and understood the Common Adventure model provisions (insert link) and that when you participated in a Common Adventure trip, you are assuming all risk for yourself and your party.
I would also volunteer to manage and track the waivers.
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Eileen, I would like for you to work with me on this. I hope you can look past the idea that we have to have a Common Adventure trips process and instead that we need to make our trip process simpler for our trip leaders. I realize our ticketing process is bulky and has more steps than we need for an experienced trip leader, so what I am proposing is that we streamline the process to replace the current Common Adventure forum.
1. The trip leader would post their trip in the forum as they do currently not submit it to us for posting. It is theirs to do. They would monitor who signs up.
2. Current members with ACA membership could reply and sign up. That is all they have to do.
3. Current members without ACA membership could post and would have to click on a link in the forum header to fill out a blank ACA trip waiver and pay the ACA insurance fee to the treasurer with-in a time period. If they do not fill a waiver and pay their fee it would effect their membership in the club. It will not be the trip leaders responsibility.
3. We create a guest sign-up link where a member’s guest would be able to fill out an ACA waiver and pay a $20.00 fee to join the paddle. It would be up to the trip leaders to approve their participation.
4. The trip leader at the end would post who actually attended and if there were any incidents so we could submit a report to the ACA.I think this would simplify the process and give the membership some of the things they have been asking for in that everyone could follow the whole process. This way all trips remain under the protection of our liability insurance which we are already paying for so why not use it. Why try to paddle without it. I think this pretty much follows how we did it in the past.
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Thank you, Eileen, for your input. Just to confirm….no decisions are made through these communications. First the board has to discuss and come to a discuss. Then we will present to members as a recommendation.
We welcome everyone to ask a questions or make a suggestions. Everyone’s input is valued.
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Yes Carolyn and Eileen anything proposed here would have to go to the board and be voted on by the membership. I see two problems that I want to come up with a solution to. One is members are not using our ticketing process, I think because it is to complicated. I do not want to get rid of our current ticketing, because I think it is great for certain functions of the club. The other is people are paddling without the protection of our liability insurance which the club is already paying for. When the club adopted the Common Adventure concept we did not have the capabilities of the website that we have now and just because that is how someone else does it is not the only answer. I know I will not make everybody happy with what comes out of this but I do want to try to come to a solution and I do not think that the solution is to come up with a waiver so people can paddle without our liability insurance coverage.
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Dennis
I don’t have a problem with the ticketing process used by members to sign up for trips.
I do have a problem with Trips Leaders not being allowed to create and manage their trips. But for me, that is easily solved.
I personally believe that getting rid of Common Adventure trips or drastically changing them is detrimental to the club. If Club members vote to stop using it or change it, I will abide by that decision but whether or not I personally follow the new process is up to me as it was for those people who elected not to lead Common Adventure trips.
I really don’t have anything more to say about this so I will let it rest now.
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Our club is growing and some younger members . That’s a very positive direction . A club must grow to survive . I feel we have a lot to offer as a club, and want to make any process easy and affordable, especially to encourage families and younger paddlers getting started. People should be able to try an easy paddle without investing a lot financially. I do appreciate the work the board members do to keep this all going . Kathy
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In order to simplify our trips process, I’d like to propose we use ACA trips for anyone wanting to lead an ACA covered trip and mandatory if the trip includes formal instruction . These require a ticketing process and a lot of work for those managing those trips, which has largely been Carolyn , to make sure each participant meets the ACA regulations.
For spontaneous trips I’m in favor of the Common Adventure model. There would be a disclaimer for anyone signing up for these trips ( like present), and to make sure all participants agree, either they just come unexpectedly, bring a friend or family member, or called the coordinator, a sign in sheet could me used at the put in. All participants would sign the Common Adventure process of being responsible for themselves, and forget any liability to the club or leader. This sign in sheet could be photocopied by the trip coordinator per smart phone and forwarded to a club file for reference . This would reduce concerns of liability and keep our trips inexpensive and spontaneous , without all the paperwork that the ACA requires. Kathy-
Late to this discussion, sorry, but just wanted to echo what Kathy said: when I joined last year, my first few trips were CA trips, they had a significant impact on me, eventually I signed up as an ACA member few months ago. Also to note, I did read the Common Adventure Model explanation on the website before signing up for CA trips. The main parts that resonated with me are working as a team to achieve a common goal, and that I would be responsible for myself. I get that and understood the risk. The risk was already a heck of a lot lower than goin solo myself down a river. If it weren’t for the easy/simple approach of the CA trips and the model, I wouldn’t have attended as many trips, be more involved and developed my river paddling skills. Hoping to attend the monthly meetings in Shrewsbury next!
Also want to echo what Scott said earlier post: thank you to all the board members and trip leaders who make it all happen smoothly and easily. Without the club or without joining the club, I feel people would gravitate towards paddling solo, or with other inexperienced paddlers, which is more risky. I’m grateful we have our club to not only paddle together, but paddle well and develop skills.
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